Interview with the Iranologist Prof. Dr. Ludwig Paul about the Zaza language

Dr. Zeynep ARSLAN

Prof. Dr. Paul, what is the position of Zazaki in the circle of Iranian languages?

Zazaki is an Indo-European language. The Indo-European languages are divided into many language groups, of which Iranian is one. Within the Iranian languages, Zazaki is one of the Western Iranian languages. Other Western Iranian languages are Persian, Kurdish, Balochschi, Taleshi, Gilaki and many others.

How can one prove whether Zazaki is a language in its own right or not? How is language affinity measured and how can it be determined how close or far this relationship is?

There are many factors that are necessary here to measure the linguistic relationship between two languages. I will concentrate on very few. For me, it is important that the matter is approached in a linguistically methodologically sound way in order to be able to measure the relationship between Persian, Kurdish and Zazaki. There are a lot of writings, essays and books on this topic and usually the Autor_Innen do something that is not quite linguistically correct. They take individual isolated features, such as individual words, and use them to compare the languages mentioned. They take ten words from Zazaki, ten words from Persian and ten words from Kurdish, meaning that this is a language or a dialect, etc.

This point is very important to me, because scientific methods are needed for language comparison. These scientific methods can usually only be acquired through university studies. If you do not have this prerequisite, you cannot carry out a competent language relationship analysis.

From a linguistic point of view, the analysis of the regular historical development of the phonetic laws is of great relevance for the determination of a linguistic relationship. Take, for example, the word “I know.” In Zazaki it is called “ez zana”, in Kurdish “dizanim” and in Persian “mīdānam”. Here in Zazaki and Kurdish we have the “zan-” in the tribe and in Persian the “dān-” in the tribe. This word is therefore important for comparing the relationships between these languages, because it goes back to an Indo-European sound. Another example is provided by the word “three”. In Persian, three is called “se”, in Kurdish “sê” and in Zazaki it is called “hirê”. This word is therefore also important because it also goes back to an Indo-European word that has been preserved in all three languages. These two words “knowledge” and “three” are an example of how Kurdish stands between Persian and Zazaki. Kurdish is related to Persian. Kurdish, however, is more related to Zazaki. The relationship between Zazaki and Persian, on the other hand, is not so close.

On the other hand, grammar is important for determining a language relationship. Grammatical categories that are old must be compared with each other, which are historically rooted in the language. It is also important to distinguish between historical commonalities and common innovations. Specifically, the question here is whether the commonality goes back to the old days or whether this commonality has formed in more recent times. As a rule, these questions can only be determined if one not only knows today’s Iranian languages, but also knows about the ancient Iranian languages, Middle Persian, Parthian and Awestisch.

This means that it is important to use the right method to be able to compare languages with each other, and this is a very complicated thing. If one does not meet these methodological requirements, then a language comparison remains pre-scientific and one can only speak of similarities. Anyone can speak of similarities of languages. That’s easy, but if you want to speak of linguistic affinity from a linguistic point of view, you have to have the methodological scientific prerequisites.

Prof. Dr. Paul, can you tell us more about the relationship between Zazaki and Kurdish?

Zazaki, Kurdish and Persian and other languages such as Balochi and Taleshi are Iranian languages and developed from a common original language a long time ago. One can only venture a rough assumption and say that about three to four thousand years ago these western Iranian languages separated from each other. Here, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western Iranian and Eastern Iranian are distinctive. Western Iranian is divided into three currents, namely Old, Middle and New Iranian. Among the New Iranian languages, Persian, Kurdish, Balochi and Zazaki, etc. are to be distinguished.

In the example “zan”-, “dān”, “se”, “sê” and “hirê”, you can see that Kurdish, Persian and Zazaki are related to each other. You can also see that Persian is more closely related to Kurdish and Kurdish to Zazaki. There are some things that Kurdish and Zazaki have in common, and some that Persian and Kurdish have in common, and some things that all three languages have in common. A methodological distinction must be made here between things that have been inherited together and things that have been renewed together. This point is very important for linguistics and dialectology. I have explained that these three languages have a common inherited sound development with two examples, namely the word “knowledge” and the word “three”. However, the present tenses are different in all three languages. In Persian, the “mībaram” means “I carry, bring”, in Kurdish “ez dibim” and in zazaki it means “ez bena”. This example shows that the languages have diverged. However, I have to add that these are completely new developments, namely about 1000 or 1500 years old. This means that they do not say much about the old linguistic relationship.

Persian, Kurdish, Balochi, Zazaki and other languages have separated from Western Iranian. It is important to know here that not much can be said more about the exact relationships in Western Iranian than that all languages separated from each other very early. There were certainly languages that were even more closely in contact with each other, such as Proto-Zazaki to Proto-Parthian and Proto-Balochi to Proto-Kurdish. Kurdish and Zazaki probably separated from each other a relatively long time ago. This event can be placed about a thousand years ago. It is interesting to note that Zazaki is closer to Kurmanci. This probably means that in older times these two languages have separated from each other and in more recent times have come closer to each other again. These languages are also geographically in closer contact with each other. Nowadays, Zazaki is relatively similar to Kurmanci and Kurmanci to Sorani, and Sorani is very similar to Persian. A thousand years ago, it was different, because then the proto-Zazaki was far removed from Kurdish.

What methods can you use to scientifically determine these statements?

Old Persian is by far the oldest attested Western Iranian language. Unfortunately, we have no texts from Kurdish, Balochi or Zazaki. There are no texts before the 16th century. For this reason, we cannot say very much about the relationship. We only have Kurdish, Balochi and Zazaki from recent times. In order to be able to judge the family relationships, it is essential to master Middle Persian and Old Persian. Without knowledge of these languages, it is impossible to carry out a scientifically sound comparative study.

Prof. Dr. Paul, you know that the discussion around the Zazaki is not independent of the question of ethnicity. What are your views on the question of the relationship between language and ethnicity?

The relationship between language and ethnicity is very complicated. Ethnicity is not only based on language, but also on culture, religion, shared history, origin, social behavior, social factors, etc. These are points that play an important role here. It is important to see that Kurds and Zazas have a lot in common, even though they are separate languages. Many Zazas can speak Kurdish and it is also a reality that Zazaki is spoken together with Kurdish in many areas where it is spoken. There is a close connection.

Even if Zazaki is a language of its own from a purely linguistic point of view, the question “to what extent they are Kurds or not” must be separated from the linguistic discussion. Ethnology says here that it is important that people assign themselves, namely according to what they believe about themselves. Every person has the right to say “I am German”, “I am Turk”, “I am Kurd” or “I am a Zaza”, because that is a human right.

A close connection between language and ethnicity should no longer be maintained, because Turkey is a country with many peoples, languages and cultures. It is important to see this diversity as a wealth. In a Turkey that is gradually approaching a Europe, nationalist ties between language and people should be broken up and at least softened.

It is important to me that these languages, including Kurmanci, do not disappear. The question is, “What is the basis and what is important for the language to survive in the long term?” The younger people are the basis. They live in the big cities and speak other languages. In the villages we find elderly people who speak the language, but they are no longer the ones who pass on the language and thus actively contribute to their survival.

Do you have any idea what can be done to make survival more strived for?

Two things are important, namely freedom and respect. Everyone must have the freedom to speak their own language. There must be respect that everyone can speak their own dialect. You can also try to create standard languages. This is also important, but the default language must be an asset. It must not be restrictive. It has to be something additional that people say, “Yes, we want this standard language too, and we want to have a common written language with it”. The standard language must not restrict freedom.

What is your general position on the standardization of a language?

The standardization of languages is very complicated, can take a very long time and requires a lot of political support. You can see in history that the standardization of German in the late Middle Ages and the early modern period took many centuries. Standardization cannot be achieved overnight and it cannot be enforced. You have to let the dialects live. Over time, something can develop and then this development can be supported politically and financially. In my opinion, this process is only possible if the differences can be seen not as a danger but as a wealth.

I very much hope that the Zazas will manage to maintain, develop and preserve their language. I very much hope that this development will not happen against other peoples, not even against the Kurds. I also hope that, on the other hand, the Kurds respect the Zazas. I believe that Zazas and Kurds and also the Turks must all make an effort together in this country to regard these languages as a wealth.

I would like to thank Prof. Dr. Paul very much for his valuable time and interest.

Berlin TERTELE Commemorative Presentation May 4, 2018 In this presentation you will find posters of our Tertele commemoration events that have taken place since the founding of our congregation in Berlin.

Who is allowed to remember?

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, Dear Friends of Dersim,
It is with particular pleasure that I welcome you on behalf of the Federation of Dersim Communities in Europe. My name is Kemal Karabulut, and I chair this federation and am a member of the Dersim Kultur community in Berlin
Me ve xerdi, sıma xer ame!
In my mother tongue Zaza, this means: Hello, you are welcome.
We just heard a song that was also in my mother tongue Zaza. I listened to this song many times in my childhood. This funeral song was about a Dersim soldier who died in the Korean War. He was a distant relative of mine. It was written by his mother when her son came back dead and expresses your feelings. He was one of many infested Dersimers.
Turkey wanted to promote its admission to NATO by providing soldiers in the Korean War. Soldiers from minorities in Turkey were drafted for this purpose, and thus Dersimer as well.
(-)
I was completely shocked when I heard the number of victims in this war. Three to 4.5 million people died in the first “hot” conflict of the Cold War between 1950 and 1953 in Korea. I was aware that there was a Korean War, but the extent of the number of victims was unknown to me.
I mourn with you for the victims and share your pain with you.
(-)
About the story of Tertele in Dersim 1937/38:
On May 4, 1937, the Council of Ministers of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey issued a special decree entitled “Dersim Tenkil Decisions”. This date marked the official beginning of Tertele. This decision was recognized by the Dersimians as the starting point of Tertele, and from that day on, the Republic of Turkey launched a cruel military operation against Dersim.
It is undeniable that excessive military force was used in Dersim and a genocide was committed against the Kizilbash Alevis. In the summer of 1938, civilians were rounded up from their villages, shot in hundreds of different places with their hands and arms tied, or doused with oil and burned. Those who sought refuge in the mountain caves were wiped out by poisonous gases from Germany. The estimated number of people killed in these mass murders is 70,000, mainly women and children.
According to the Kemalist state ideology of the time, Dersim was to be “cleansed” both ethnically and religiously. A military state of emergency was imposed on Dersim, and in the winter of 1936/37 the army took control of the region to carry out the planned genocide. After 1938, the remaining families were forcibly resettled.
Since the genocide, commemorative events have been banned in Turkey. In recent years, however, on May 4, the anniversary of the attacks on Dersim in 1937/38, protests have been organized in various places in Turkey, which are harshly suppressed by security forces.
(-)
In the 60s, German industry needed workers, and people from different countries followed this call. They brought not only their labor with them, but also their history, culture and identity. The Dersimers are part of this group and were emotionally hurt by the Turkish side’s non-recognition of the true story.
Since its foundation in 1993, the Dersim Kultur Gemeinde Berlin has organized commemorative events, exhibitions, scientific conferences and concerts. For the past five years, we have gathered on May 4 with clergy of different religions, scientists, politicians, artists and representatives of various congregations in the prayer room of the Federal Parliament to commemorate. At this year’s memorial meeting, the Vice President of the Bundestag, Petra Pau, also gave a speech.
(-)
In 2014, we submitted an application for a Tertele monument Dersim 1937/38 in Berlin to the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg district office:
This was approved by a majority and was presented to several commissions. We attracted attention in the media, both in Germany and in Turkey.
Despite resistance, a major symposium was held in 2018 in cooperation with the Kreuzberg Museum and with the participation of Freie Universität and Technische Universität Berlin.
We hope to unveil the monument on May 4, 2024.
What significance does commemoration have for the Dersim community?
On 22.11.2022, the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg district council decided to send a commemorative letter to the Dersim community every year on May 4 and to publish it on its website. Such measures help to strengthen the emotional strength of the generations after 1938, who grew up with terrible war stories.
It is not just about a monument, but about the recognition of our history and culture. We strive to be integrated into society and seen. We want the dark sides of Turkish history to be illuminated, for the terrible past to be dealt with and for peace of mind to return.
Federation of Dersim Communities in Europe (FDG)

Sevgili Dersimliler ve Dersim Dostları, 19. DÜZGÜN BABA İNANÇ VE KÜLTÜR ETKİNLĞINE Hoş geldiniz
Biz ağırlıklı olarak Avrupa’da çalışmalar yürüten ve yüzü Dersim’e dönük bir kurumuz. 80 ́ li yılların ortalarına doğru örgütlenmeye başlayan Diaspora Dersimlilerinin, 2006 yılında kurmuş oldukları çatı örgütü olan Avrupa Dersim Dernekleri Federasyonu (FDG) nin sizlere selamlarını ve aşkı muhabbetlerini getirdim.
Bugün burada Düzgün babaya niyaz adamak, Dersim kılamlarını hep beraber söylemek, Xızır’ın Kırmancki/Zazaca dilini konuşmak ve tarihsel geleneklerimizi yasatmak için bir aradayız.
Dersim birçok kavme, medeniyete ve inanca beşiklik etmiş bir kaledir. Düzgün Bava, Xızır, Munzur
Bava, Anafatma, Buyere “Jiar u Diyar “topraklarını mekan eylediler. Buradan yükselttiler yetmiş iki
Milletin Türküsünü. Kırmanciye Beleke dedikleri renga renk çiçeklerle bezeli bu insanlık bahçesini koruyup, besleyelim; sulayıp zenginleşmesine katkı sunalım!
Değerli canlar,
Bugün biliyoruz ki inancımız ve İnanç alanlarımız tehdit altındadır. Dağlarımız Maden şirketlerinin ablukası altındadır. Doğamız ve yaşam alanlarımız Adeta işgal altındadır. Coğrafyamız insansızlaştırılarak demografik yapısı değiştirilmek istenmektedirler .
Biz Avrupa dersim dernekler Federasyonu temsilcileri ve taraftarları olarak, tüm dersim kurumlarına ve dersimlilere huzurlarınızda bir kez daha seslenmek istiyoruz!
Gün ayrı durmak değil ortak mücadele günüdür, Gün dersime sahip çıkma günüdür, Gün inancımız olan Raq haqq ve Jiar u Diyarlarımıza sahip çıkma; Gün dilimize ve kimliğimizi sahiplenme günüdür diyoruz.
Dersim elden gidiyor!
Yarın çok geç olmadan gelin duygularımızı, amaçlarımızı, hedeflerimizi, acılarımızı, aklımızı, vicdanımızı ve mücadelemizi ortaklaştıralım. Dersimin geleceğini ortak mücadele ile şekillendirelim.
Biliriz ki Dersim bizim kutsal toprağımızdır. Onun yok edilmesi, bizlerin yetim kalması demektir.
Biz bir Avrupa örgütlenmesiyiz, ancak kurulduğumuz günden beri bir yanımız daima Dersim oldu. Yok edilmek istenen dillerimiz, kimliğimiz ve kişiliğimizi yasatmak ve uluslararası platformlara taşımak için önemli görevler üstlendik ve sesimizi yükselttik. Basta Dersim 37/38 Sözlü Tarih Projesinin, Dünyanın en büyük tarihi soykırımlar Arşivine sahip olan SHOAH vakfı arşivine alınması olmak üzere önemli tarihi adımlar attık. Tarihte ilk kez bir Resmi kurumun (Berlin Friedrichshein-Kreuzberg Belediyesi) TERTETE 38 ́i tanıması ve yüzleşilmesinin gerekliliğine vurgu yapması, çalışmalarımızın an itibari ile gelmiş olduğu aşamadır. Bu tarihsel adımı sizlere ve Dersim TERTELE ́sin de yitirdiğimiz masum u paklarımıza ulaştırmış olmanın gururunu yaşıyoruz. Sizden aldığımız güven ile yürüttüğümüz uluslararası diplomatik girişimlerimizi, hukuk ve adalet arayışımızı sürdüreceğiz!
Bu etkinliği düzenleyen Nazimiye belediye başkanı sayın Cafer Kırmızıçiçek ve tertip komitesi nezdinde, sanatçılarımızı ve emek veren herkese sonsuz teşekkürlerimizi sunuyoruz.
Munzur özgür Akacak, akmaya devam edecek diyoruz.
Bize verdiğiniz destek ile kutsal topraklara hizmet ettik, etmeye devam edeceğiz.
FDG – Yönetim Kurulu 29 Temmuz 2023